Bill vs. Jim - Round 1

[sirhc]

You're going to get me in trouble with Rory over my comment, aren't you?

I think he knows where I'm coming from. I still rib him about when he came back from the UWC in Prague. Some things you cannot escape from.

ROFL - No, you just brought up an old friend that reminded me I should talk to!

Rory knows I rib him as being a conspiracy type guy. I used to love debating issues with him and Justin (WHT), well before the aliens abducted him.....we will remember you always Justin.

Justin and Rory always saw conspiracies everywhere!

[eejimm]

Well, since Ligetfa let me know I was being discussed (thanks BTW) I though I'd chime in here -

My basic point was that all the Mimosa hype has to be ballanced by the reality (are they really that good? How long did you have to wait to get them?). Same thing with Ubiquiti. But I purchased our first AC radios in about August, retail from Streakwave IIRC, so no, I never got early ones. But testing them I got speeds (with sufficient signal and CINR) that I actually stopped even thinking about the Mimosa radios. And I was/am a big supporter of what they're trying to do. But after seeing their whole shebang at Wispapalooza and talking directly to one of the founders, and seeing what they could do vs. what I was already getting with the AC radios, we've dropped plans to use their gear. And yes, you're right I was incorrect about the pricing - at $899 the Mimosa radios are almost the price of an AF5 which absolutely runs rings around it. If I compare them to the AC radios, I can buy 2 AC radios, plus two 2 foot dishes for less than the price of 1 Mimosa with no antenna.

I do think they have a great idea for urban wireless, with their beamforming AP, etc, and the story of the chipset and everything sounds great, although I'm really skeptical of their whole "hang the CPE in the window" deployment thing. But do you want to wait another year to deploy the first CPE? I can serve my customers right now with AC gear (or legacy M products) and not have to loose market share for the next 12 months.

That's really all I was getting at.
Jim

Edit - and to be clear, I am under NDA with Mimosa, but I do not have any of their gear - it was for other business related reasons. I was in the EA program, but by the time the radios were available we decided not to get any...

[sirhc]

Hi Jim,

Yea, I think the whole hang the radio in a window idea is crap too! - WILL NEVER WORK

Yes, the cost of a Mimosa link is quite high and puts it somewhere between the AF5 and the AC radios, much closer to AF5, which puts it out reach for any links but to high end customer PTP links as I mentioned above for my WISP.

Will the AF5 out preform the Mimos.....yes, it will. And as I have said I think the engineering that went into the AF5 is TOP NOTCH I just hate the idea of any wide channel 5 GHz link especially one like AF5 which is full duty cycle all the time. If AF5 was only available for WISPs to buy I would love the concept but we all know how I feel about AF5, that horse died a long time ago.

But the Mimosa link is also top notch engineering, not insulting their radio either, but it is high priced for half duplex. Now if it was 11,18,23 I would love it...

And yes I would love to see a side by side from you on these links, I have never said you were not meticulous in your testing and I would not question (too much) any detailed comparison post you put up!

I am frustrated with the time it is taking to get 5150-5250 certifications and firmware from Ubiquiti....I know I know, it is not "all" their fault, the FCC does have a little blame to shoulder.

And "yes" I did find your attempt to defend Ubiquiti in the face of Bill's post a little bit like "Mission Impossible", and I do find some aspects of it funny (other than the price point - rock solid logic there) but that is in no way insulting you like I think Les thinks I am being. I will say that historically you often posted the good, the bad, and the ugly about stuff but for several months you have been more "pro" Ubiquiti then in the past.

I do totally agree with you that the price point of the Mimosa gear is far too high for CPE deployment, not sure how that will work once they do have PTMP?

I am not sure I like either link (AF5 or Mimosa) being able to chew up such large portions of our 5GHz bread and butter spectrum and the Mimosa radio is "almost" as dangerous for WISPs as the AF5 (the full duty cycle thing).

However one thing I did have respect for Ubiquiti was the fact that they limit channel width on AC PTMP applications but I am not sure if that was done because they want prevent spectrum wars or was a bi-product of certifications? Or maybe it hust did not work well enough to bother with sectors (STN levels). A hint might be in the CL channels they allow in PTMP verses PTP?

I will admit that I have been out of touch with testing "any" new gear with my work with Netonix so I do value bias analysis which I always remembered you as providing but to be honest Jim you have not had any negative thing to say about Ubiquti in a long long time. Now that could be because you are completely happy with everything or you were abducted and brainwashed in your sleep. I just find it next to impossible for a man with your attention to detail not finding something that needs fixed or changed.

Anyway as I said Jim I was NOT insulting you in anyway, I do have respect for your ability and knowledge and when in the past or in the future when I do challenge you I always make sure I have my i's dotted and all my t's crossed but with that said I did think "man Jim is trying real hard here"!

Feel free to come around and chat anytime about anything as you know I have no way to reach you over there. If I could have posted there on this I would have.

[wtm]

Well, since we seem to have the right cast members in place on this subject....... I don't want to steal the post, but..........
I have been trying to get some straight answers on the comparisons between the Mimosa's and the Ubiquiti AC units. Nobody wants to talk! Right now, we have backhaul with regular Rockets (32 miles). I want to replace them with AC's and hopefully get a bit more bandwidth to stretch me a several months till I can go to Licensed 11 ghz stuff at a closer fiber drop.

I can't get a clear answer from anyone on this!

Mimosa has the product certified and working. UBNT is STILL waiting for certification on the lower channels (UNII-1 primarily).
Unfortunately the link is longer than what would work for an AF5.......?

Since we are looking at @$800+ for a Mimosa unit, I don't want to buy them to TEST them. Especially, if we are going to get UBNT AC units certified in a month or two? But UBNT (or the FCC) is not going to admit if they have even sent any AC units to the FCC at this time to get them certified? (Can UBNT even make the AC unit work to meet the new regulations?)

All we keep hearing from UBNT is Soon, Soon, Soon ! Can't make good business decisions on Soon!
So here we sit, frustrated, and getting dismayed ! As customers keep calling asking for more bandwidth I can't really deliver at this point!

[sirhc]

Well, since we seem to have the right cast members in place on this subject....... I don't want to steal the post, but..........
I have been trying to get some straight answers on the comparisons between the Mimosa's and the Ubiquiti AC units. Nobody wants to talk! Right now, we have backhaul with regular Rockets (32 miles). I want to replace them with AC's and hopefully get a bit more bandwidth to stretch me a several months till I can go to Licensed 11 ghz stuff at a closer fiber drop.

I can't get a clear answer from anyone on this!

Mimosa has the product certified and working. UBNT is STILL waiting for certification on the lower channels (UNII-1 primarily).
Unfortunately the link is longer than what would work for an AF5.......?

Since we are looking at @$800+ for a Mimosa unit, I don't want to buy them to TEST them. Especially, if we are going to get UBNT AC units certified in a month or two? But UBNT (or the FCC) is not going to admit if they have even sent any AC units to the FCC at this time to get them certified? (Can UBNT even make the AC unit work to meet the new regulations?)

All we keep hearing from UBNT is Soon, Soon, Soon ! Can't make good business decisions on Soon!
So here we sit, frustrated, and getting dismayed ! As customers keep calling asking for more bandwidth I can't really deliver at this point!

WOW - 32 miles for 11 GHz is way to far unless you break it up in hops.

Not sure how the AC will work at that distance, I would defer to Jim on this as I have little to no experience with UBNT AC gear especially at that distance. Nor do I have any experience with Mimosa.

For that distance you would need to use 5.7-5.8 or the new 5150 to 5250 and UBNT is not yet certified for that but Mimosa is "I think".

Mimosa needs to open a forum here since they do not have their own, we allow any manufacturers to have a Forum of their own here with admin privileges if they ask for one.

But for most of your question Jim has more experience in long distance shots as my WISP caps out at 11 mile backhauls, and his experience with the NEW AC Rockets is far more than me.

If you have any question with the original airMAX gear on shots less than 11 miles, RF Armor shielding, or Netonix I am your man!

[wtm]

The 11 ghz stuff will be at a closer site, and will only be a 17 mile shot. But until we can get moved to there, I need to get something sorted out with our existing 5 ghz stuff!

[sirhc]

The 11 ghz stuff will be at a closer site, and will only be a 17 mile shot. But until we can get moved to there, I need to get something sorted out with our existing 5 ghz stuff!

Even 17 miles will not any where close to a safe distance for 11 GHz in my opinion.

Maybe give Bill a PM about his Mimosa links because I believe they are certified for 5150 which is a very clean spectrum and he appears to be real happy with them?

You could use the Rocket AC but would be stuck with 5.7 to 5.8 which may or may not be a problem for you on channel planning?

[wtm]

Not able to use UNII-3 coming out of Phoenix, due to a FM station using it with old Analog 4-T1 equipment, and 12 foot dishes on it. They literally take up the whole band! Need that UNII-1 certification on UBNT AC units, or go with the Mimosa ones?

[sirhc]

Well if you need it "now" you answer your own question - Mimosa is ready with UNII-I Ubiquiti is not.

Also as much as I like Ubiquiti and love the price points you need to ask/read more about people's experiences with airMAX AC. I am sure it is mostly software and will get worked out but if this is your bread and butter maybe test UBNT new radios on a less important link?

I will be honest, after reading Bill's post I am very seriously considering a test Mimosa link. At least then I can provide my own experience. It just seems so weird for me even be considering anything but Ubiquiti but I guess I should try one link? I am also interested/in-need of the UBII-I band. I would even consider AF5 in that band since it is for PTP only. I wish Ubiquiti only released AF5 in that band but that only makes sense for US based WISPs not the world market.

[eejimm]

On the throughput side of things, you might want to read this if you haven't already.
http://community.ubnt.com/t5/airMAX-Sto ... -p/1146365
70Mb on a 10 MHz channel may make using even on 5.8GHz a possibility - narrower bandwidth means less noise too...
Jim